Crispin Blunt

Conservative Party | Reigate

Draft flags regulations {Northern Ireland)(Amendment) 2002

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Desmond Browne): I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) 2002.

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Cook. I am sure that the Committee will deal with the regulations in an expeditious and relevant way, and that you will keep us close to that objective.

The draft regulations make minor adjustments to the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000. In part, the motivation behind them is the very sad one that we must lift the requirement for the flying of the Union flag from certain Government buildings in Northern Ireland on the birthdays of the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret. The other element of the regulations is much happier: they provide for the flag to be flown, as it will be elsewhere in the United Kingdom, during the weekend of celebrations for Her Majesty's golden jubilee from 1 to 4 June this year.

I should first explain why legislation is necessary at all. In Northern Ireland, unlike in the rest of the United Kingdom, the flying of flags on Government buildings has long been a matter of some controversy—that is the understatement of the day. Until devolution under the Belfast agreement, the question was, of course, one for Her Majesty's Government. Following devolution, the Northern Ireland Executive sought to arrive at a common understanding on the way forward, but was unable to do so.

In the circumstances, the then Secretary of State thought it right to legislate to establish consistent arrangements for flying the Union flag, reflecting those elsewhere in the United Kingdom. The Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 permitted the Secretary of State to make regulations on the matter, subject to consultation with the Assembly and the approval of each House here. The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000, passed later the same year, set out the detailed scheme, requiring the flying of the Union flag from a number of Government buildings on days specified in the regulations, and on those days only. The days were those on which flags were customarily flown on Government buildings in Great Britain.

I am aware that that legislation was not without controversy, and that some people in Northern Ireland still have regrets about it, or about aspects of it, but I hope that the draft instrument will not reawaken them, because it is in the nature of routine maintenance of the earlier legislation and is entirely consistent with its principles. The form of the regulations means that such running repairs are necessary from time to time.

The Assembly has been consulted on the draft regulations, as the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 requires. That is right, because this is, properly, a transferred matter that the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive could properly deal with. The Assembly debated the matter, but did not seek to arrive at a consolidated view. That is understandable, in view of the limited amount of time that, unfortunately, was available to it. On the one hand, one of the events that provoked the regulations, the death of Her Majesty the Queen Mother, is still painfully recent. On the other hand, the jubilee celebrations are imminent, but policy on the flying of flags in Great Britain on that occasion has only recently been decided. Nevertheless, the Assembly held a debate, during which a range of views were expressed, and a copy of the official report of that debate, which was forwarded to the Secretary of State by the Speaker, has been made available to the Committee.

It is fair to say that there was little opposition to the draft regulations, although, as I have said, controversy still reigns over aspects of the earlier order, and some of that controversy showed through in the debate. On the whole, however, many Assembly Members expressly recognised the desirability of the regulations, and the Assembly has certainly not expressed any view to this House that it should hesitate over their approval.

We would welcome it if the Northern Ireland authorities were to take back the area of policy on the basis of an agreed approach. I hope that the day is getting near when it will be possible for agreement to be reached on such issues in Northern Ireland. The Executive and the Assembly have achieved a great deal, and we must never forget how far we have moved since the Belfast agreement.

Attitudes are changing, especially on royal matters. It was my great privilege to take part last week in the visit by Her Majesty the Queen to Northern Ireland. It was an immensely cheering experience, not only because of the great and evident pleasure that it brought directly to a large number of people, but because all shades of nationalists—as we can understand in the light of their constitutional aspirations, they have always viewed royal visits differently—were able to acknowledge the importance of the visit to their Unionist fellow citizens in Northern Ireland.

Lady Hermon (North Down): I would like clarification on the Minister's reference to the change in attitudes to royal matters. Will he confirm that the flag will be flown at the new Royal Courts of Justice at Laganside on 1, 3 and 4 June 2002?

Mr. Browne: The hon. Lady interrupted me as I was coming to the end of my remarks. Given the comparatively simple nature of the regulations, I had not intended to say much more. She will know that regulations 2(1) and (2) of the 2000 regulations refer to the buildings on which the flag is required to be flown on specified dates. The buildings are broadly in two categories, one of which is specified Government buildings set out in a schedule to the regulations. Regulation 2(2) requires the Union flag to be flown

''at any other government building at which it was the practice to fly the Union flag on notified days in the period of 12 months ending with 30th November 1999.''

For the edification of hon. Members who have not worked it out—the hon. Lady clearly has done—the building to which she referred did not exist on 30 November 1999, and certainly not in its complete state, so the provision could not apply to it. From my reading of the list of specified buildings, the regulations do not apply to that building. However, policy on court buildings is a matter for the Lord Chancellor, not for the regulations. I shall ensure that the implication of her question is made clear to him.

Lady Hermon: Will the Minister clarify the original interpretation of the 2000 regulations? Is it his view that a Government building that was not listed in the schedule, such as that of the Department of Education if it were to move elsewhere, would not be required to fly the Union flag?

Mr. Browne: Such questions are helpful, in terms of clarification. When one legislates for such matters, life shows us that what appears simple at the outset becomes complicated. What I described as the housekeeping is the simplest part of the regulations.

I shall try not to refer specifically again to the 2000 regulations, which are to be amended. The hon. Lady knows the buildings to which they apply. The current regulations would not apply to any future building that did not fit the description specified in regulation 2(2) of the 2000 regulations. One does not know to which building an Executive Department may move, so one cannot clearly say whether it would be on the list.

On the hon. Lady's earlier question, she may recollect that the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill contains a provision that amends the flags regulations to ensure that they apply to court buildings. However, the Bill will not—even with the best will in the world—be enacted before the earliest date on which the amended regulations will apply. I hope that those answers cover the issues that she raised.

Lady Hermon: This is an important point because the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is guaranteed in the Belfast agreement and is recognised by flying the Union flag. Will the Minister give a commitment that the gaps in the 2000 regulations will be closed? It is already obvious from our debate that there are gaps, and that those regulations do not cover future Government buildings.

Mr. Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question, which I might answer by drawing her attention to the fact that we are discussing the regulations today. I am sure that I can convince her that the Government will not be reluctant to deal with issues such as those that we are discussing. Indeed, the hon. Lady will be aware that the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill deals with the issue of court buildings, which she raised.

The hon. Lady will also know that the Government were reluctant to legislate in respect of flags in these and the earlier regulations. I have expressed the hope that the Executive and the Assembly will be able to take responsibility for the issue, as intended in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 in the first instance. I am sure that she shares my aspiration that clarity will be brought to the issue by the people of Northern Ireland, rather than by Government legislation on an issue on which it is accepted that the required precision cannot be guaranteed. Indeed, we may need to return to these issues.

Before taking those interventions, which helped to clarify matters, I was sharing with the Committee my experience of Her Majesty the Queen's visit to Northern Ireland last week. The visit was a positive event for several reasons, including the views expressed by nationalists across the board. It is worth noting that some nationalists took a full part in the visit, and reflected the feelings of Unionists. As Her Majesty said when she spoke to it, the Assembly

''can demonstrate that it is possible to build trust, and in doing so continue the building of new Northern Ireland''.

The visit itself brought out a most positive and hopeful spirit among Members of the Assembly.

For the time being, however, the power to make such regulations remains with us, and, taking account of the Assembly's views, I commend the instrument to the Committee.

Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate): I join the Minister in welcoming you to the Chair, Mr. Cook. Equally, I join him in noting that the amendment to the regulations arises for reasons of both sadness and celebration. We all remember the enormous contribution of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret to public life and to Northern Ireland during their long service to the country. It is sad that those days are to be removed from the calendar, but it is also a cause for celebration that the flags will be flown for three days over the jubilee.

Northern Ireland is in a peculiar situation, as the issue of symbols and images is particularly loaded there. During the Assembly's proceedings on this subject, there was no discussion of the merits of the amendment—its Members merely endorsed it. The Sinn Fein Member's contribution, concerning where the powers for making the regulations should lie, provided the only note of controversy.

I take on board the Minister's comments about the intentions underlying the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Ideally, the Executive and the Assembly in Northern Ireland should be able to be deal with these matters, but that cannot be the case in the present circumstances.

The Opposition have no difficulty with the detail of the amendment, and I join the Minister in congratulating Her Majesty, and His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, on their highly successful visit to Northern Ireland last week. I also congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) on instantly identifying the lacuna that is now in the detail of the regulations, and I join her in asking the Government to undertake a tidying-up process. It is odd that particular buildings, rather than classes of buildings, are listed, because the uses of buildings change over time. The legislation is meant to apply to classes of buildings, and it is absurd that it will have to be changed whenever there is a new building—such as the courts at Laganside. That must be addressed.I take on board the Minister's point that these issues, as they affect the Royal Courts of Justice, will be dealt with under the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill, which has passed through its first go in this place, before their Lordships take a look at it and perhaps refer certain details back here, subject to the flexibility of the Government.

This matter must be clarified. Any ambiguity will merely lend itself to the creation of a debilitating and unnecessary discussion about symbols and emblems, which is such a sensitive subject in Northern Ireland. We would welcome clarification, but the Opposition have no difficulty with the amendment.

Lady Hermon: I, too, am delighted to welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Cook.

The hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) rightly said that flags have been especially controversial in Northern Ireland. The Belfast agreement made it much more important to clarify the position. The agreement was endorsed by the majority of people in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The wishes of the majority were that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland was guaranteed: it will be part of the United Kingdom unless and until a majority of the people consent otherwise. However, a later part of the agreement also stated that all participants

''should acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes.''

The key is to get the balance right. The Assembly experienced great difficulty with that and could not reach any firm conclusions, so the then Secretary of State had to resolve the issue with the 2000 regulations.

I have never liked those regulations. They identified buildings by name and location, including, as I have said, the Department of Education, which is in Bangor, in my constituency. The Minister of Education is from Sinn Fein, which has not taken its seats in our House. There are strong rumours that the Department may be moved outside my constituency, so it is with intense irritation and frustration that I, who fully support the agreement, note that it will not be respected by the flags regulations unless they are amended to cover any future move of the Department of Education. That must be covered.

The Northern Ireland Assembly report, copies of which we have recently received, tells us that the 2000 regulations apply to Government buildings alone.

Those buildings are narrowly defined in those regulations to cover only those mainly or wholly occupied by Northern Ireland civil servants. That has the peculiar result that the seat of the Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont falls outside their ambit.We have two flagpoles on Stormont, and nothing creates more offence to people in the Unionist community than bare flagpoles where they expect to see a flag. Fortunately, the Northern Ireland Commission, made up of a few select Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, possesses the common sense, dignity and wisdom to resolve that the Assembly itself should follow the pattern of Government buildings. However, that is a decision of the commission and is not put in place by the 2000 regulations.

Mr. Browne: The hon. Lady seeks to encourage the Government to legislate for the building that is principally occupied by the Northern Ireland Assembly. I draw a parallel with this building, which is a Parliament building mainly occupied by Parliament. It is for Parliament to decide whether flags will fly over this building, not for the Government to impose a regulation on it. I ask her to consider whether it is appropriate to treat Stormont in such a way and whether the decision made by those who principally occupy the building was not the right one.

Lady Hermon: I thank the Minister for that helpful intervention, which brings me to the point that Northern Ireland's constitutional status is that of the rest of the United Kingdom. One would expect that there should be no debate over a major Government building such as the seat of the Northern Ireland Assembly and that the flag should fly over it on the same basis as it does in the rest of the United Kingdom.

The 2000 regulations have been challenged in the High Court of Justice in Northern Ireland by Mr. Conor Murphy, who argued that they were incompatible with the agreement. The decision was instructive: of course, the judge upheld the regulations, saying:

''The Union flag is the flag of the United Kingdom of which Northern Ireland is a part. It is the judgement of the Secretary of State that it should be flown on government buildings only on those days on which it is flown in Great Britain. By thus confining the days on which the flag is to appear, the Secretary of State sought to strike the correct balance between, on the one hand, acknowledging Northern Ireland's constitutional position, and, on the other, not giving offence to those who oppose it. That approach seems to me to exemplify a proper regard for ''partnership, equality and mutual respect'' and to fulfil the Government's undertaking that its jurisdiction in Northern Ireland ''shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people''.

That was a good and instructive judgment. The judge clearly repeated the judgment that the flag should be flown on the same days as it is flown in Great Britain. From that judgment, I would suggest to the Minister that in future the flag should be flown on Government buildings on the same basis on which it is flown in the rest of the United Kingdom. Because the instrument contains amendments allowing the Union flag to be flown in Northern Ireland during the official celebration of Her Majesty's golden jubilee on 1, 3 and 4 June 2002—sadly, it will not be flown on the birthdays of either Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother or Princess Margaret—we are happy to support it.

Mrs. Patsy Calton (Cheadle): I should like to associate the Liberal Democrats with the welcome to the Chair that you have already received, Mr. Cook.

I should also like to associate the Liberal Democrats with the remarks that have been made about the sad losses of the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret. The amendment recognises that it is no longer appropriate to fly flags on their birthdays. It is entirely appropriate that flags should be flown throughout the United Kingdom in honour of the 50 years of universally acknowledged selfless service by Her Majesty to all parts of the United Kingdom. As I intended, I have confined my remarks entirely to the instrument.