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By Tony Grew - 6th December 2010
The policing minister has clashed with Labour MPs over the government's plans to cut spending.
Nick Herbert said there is "no simple link" between police numbers and crime rates and what "really matters" is how officers are deployed.
John Woodcock (Lab, Barrow and Furness) accused him of being "out of touch with reality on the ground" and said increasing police numbers lowers crime.
He called on the minister to retract his statement.
Herbert said the test is "what we are doing with those officers" and quoted an HMIC report that found that just 11 per cent of officers are "visible and available" at any time.
He added that there is a problem with bureaucracy in police forces.
Shadow home office minister Vernon Coaker said Herbert had given media interviews claiming there is no link between police numbers and crime.
He asked the minister to confirm that the new elected police commissioners proposed by the government will be able to appoint political advisers.
Herbert reiterated that there is "no simple link" between crime and police numbers and claimed Labour MP Ben Bradshaw made a similar point in a media appearance in September.
He suggested the opposition read the legislation introducing police and crime commissioners as political appointments will be banned.
Paul Blomfield (Lab, Sheffield Central) said the jobs of 337 PCSOs are at risk in South Yorkshire because of cuts to police and council budgets.
He said people believe money would be better spent on those officers than new police commissioners.
Herbert said elections for commissioners will cost £12m, but they should not cost more than existing police authorities.
Shadow home secretary Ed Balls claimed that the 11 per cent statistic is "corrupt and erroneous" and front-loaded cuts will hit front line policing, with officers losing their jobs all across the country.
He accused home secretary Theresa May of not standing up for the police in the CSR.
Herbert said he was "astonished" at Balls' attack on the 11 per cent statistic and suggested he speak to HMIC if he has an issue about it.
He accused the opposition of scaremongering and claims the government's police reforms will put more resources on the front line.
Greg Mulholland (Lib Dem, Leeds NW) said changes in grants to police will see a fall for his area but a small rise for Surrey - he called for the same level of cut in each force.
Herbert said he will be making an announcement on the policing grant "very shortly".
Julian Lewis (Con, New Forest East) said the Wikileaks data leak was a low-level crime with a high-level volume of data and said it is a warning that "gigantic data bases" should not be created.
May said the national security adviser has sought assurances from government departments about their security arrangements.
She added that £650m will be spent over four years on a national cyber-security programme.
The home secretary reminded the House that a national security risk assessment was carried out for the first time ahead of the security and defence review.
She said the government is ready to tackle both cyber terrorism and cyber crime.
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