Emily Thornberry MP
Promotion of Volunteering
Mr. Joyce: I want to direct my brief comments to new clause 29. I came to the debate instinctively supportive of the new clause, and even after listening to the magnificent lawyerly exposition of my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), who made some interesting and, perhaps, valid points, I am not sure that he has changed my mind. He has certainly not changed my view of the dangers of a compensation culture.
Before the debate, I took the precaution of asking a few people about that issue. I spoke to members of the Camelon Labour club in my constituency, which organises activities and outings for children in the local area during the summer months. They tell me that there is no question but that people are more reluctant to volunteer nowadays, due to the perception that there is a greater risk of the law prevailing on them.
I spoke to a couple of people who run judo clubs. I know the sport fairly well; it has a lower risk of injury than many others. Those people had exactly the same opinion about the compensation culture. I spoke to people who run outdoor activities for schools; they held the same view. It seems pretty widespread. I also spoke to people at a marvellous organisation in my constituency—Westfield community centre, which, rather like the Camelon Labour club, runs summer activities for children. Mrs. Betty Cook, who runs that organisation extremely effectively, held the same opinion, so although I recognise the expertise of my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, I find it a little odd that he describes the compensation culture as an urban myth, because that claim is neither scientific nor proven. I think that Members on both sides of the House would agree that there is some foundation for the idea that there is a compensation culture.
A number of hon. Members received quite a lot of correspondence before the debate. I looked through some of the arguments—clearly, they were offered independently and individually—and they had a certain interesting pattern. Different arguments were offered for disagreeing with the Bill, particularly the new clause, which represents its essence, and I shall share with the House a couple of those arguments, which were, frankly, rather shallow.
One of those arguments came from the Association of British Insurers, which said that the courts would interpret the Bill's provisions is such a way that people could not delineate voluntary activity from professional activity. We have heard a great deal lawyerly language today, but common sense can apply in these circumstances. Not every word that goes through someone's mind when reading a Bill needs to appear in the Bill. It is entirely possible to make that delineation.
Volunteering England does not support the Bill, but strangely—although this is not entirely contradictory—it agrees that there is an increasingly litigious culture. That is important. I do not think that the new clause was particularly badly drafted. I am not a lawyer, but it seems to have been drafted by someone who knew their business. However, I am not professionally qualified to make that point.
Another organisation, called Playlink, is sympathetic to the concerns that have been expressed, but it says that it does not support the Bill because the issues involved are very complex. There is a grave danger if we just give up. All issues can be complex, particularly where lawyers are concerned. I have enormous respect for lawyers, especially when I occasionally avail myself of one, although they are clearly very expensive. Nevertheless, we should be careful about accepting the argument that we should shy away because things are terribly complex. That is not a particularly good argument for not supporting the Bill.
Another excellent organisation, Youth Action Network, was against the new clause and the Bill in general because it thought that the provisions would not be clear to the voluntary organisations that used them. Again, that relates to the argument about complexity. It is like saying, "Well, it's all a bit too complicated. Not everyone is a lawyer." My view is that common sense can solve much of that problem.
The British Trust for Conservation Volunteers thought that, instead of the Bill, more insurance should be taken out, and the Association of British Insurers might agree. Frankly, I have my doubts about that suggestion and I wonder whether other agendas might lie behind it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, East, Nairn and Lochaber (Mr. Stewart) referred to the Samaritans. Although the Samaritans do not engage in what we would normally consider as dangerous or risky activities, I suppose that risk might be involved in the advice that someone is given down the phone. I have not seen the correspondence, but the Samaritans did not like the Bill either. They thought that the Bill would make it more difficult to recruit and retain volunteers. I could not follow the logic of that argument. The Bill is about exposing risk, making it public and reducing the risk to volunteers, thus making it easier to recruit and retain people.
Another organisation broached an important issue, perhaps unintentionally. Student Volunteering England argued that
"volunteering is becoming increasingly professionalised",
so we should not separate professional staff from volunteers. My right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) made it clear that a distinction must be made between a volunteer and a professional member of staff. We all understand that that distinction is important, irrespective of whether it is based on training, competence or whatever. If we say that volunteers must have professional expertise, it would be a sure fire way to get rid of any possibility of people volunteering. Of course, volunteers are not paid, but if they achieve the same standards of training and competence as professionals, they would reasonably expect to be paid.
Finally, although I could mention many more organisations, Volunteers in Action argued—this is my understanding of its argument—that we should not make the risks more transparent as a greater awareness of the risks would make it less likely that people would want to volunteer. Again that seems to be a back-to-front way of approaching the matter. We want to expose the risk so that people understand it and can ask themselves whether they want to help in the activities. We then want the courts, if necessary, to use their common sense to recognise that there was an element of risk.
Mr. Brazier: The hon. Gentleman is making an extremely punchy speech that goes to the heart of the issue of informed consent and to the intentions of everyone supporting the Bill. He is absolutely right.
Mr. Joyce: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's argument. Although I am prepared to accept expert legal advice and recognise that it is difficult to draft legislation—whether one does or does not support a Bill may depend on specific legal advice—the issue comes down to a straightforward common-sense distinction. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon expounded at length on lawyerly principles, but he over-complicated the matter. One can hardly understand a single word if every word is taken apart. One cannot legislate in the House if every word is deconstructed in that fashion.
The issue comes down to a common-sense judgment. By and large, the new clause makes sense to me as a non-lawyer. I understand that there may be legal difficulties, but my feeling is that most right-thinking people would look at the new clause and say, "Yes, this makes sense. It will help to encourage more volunteers."
Lawrie Quinn: When my hon. Friend spoke to volunteer organisations in his constituency, did they, like the ones in my constituency, express the view that they faced large administrative burdens and red tape in undertaking their fund raising and other activities? Does he think that the Bill will add to those burdens rather than reduce them?
Mr. Joyce: No, I do not. It is fairly straightforward. A certificate would be signed off and the questions of who would sign it and the ages at which children would have to be signed off could be understood quite clearly. The Department could stipulate such matters. It is relatively straightforward to ask for a certificate to be signed off, and that could encourage more people to join and help organisations.
Essentially, this is an issue of common sense. We should be careful about over-complicating matters, using too much legal jargon and deconstructing concepts too much. We all understand what is going on. We expect people to take reasonable care and exercise skill, and I understand exactly what that means. Above all, we should expose risk to enable people to judge whether they wish to take part in an activity that involves risk. Providing that those involved in voluntary activities understand the risks, things should go well. We should always bear in mind the increasing difficulties that organisations, such as those in my constituency, have in recruiting and retaining volunteers. That is the essence of the Bill.
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(16th July 2004, c1714-1717)
