Angela Watkinson

Conservative Party | Upminster

Fire Services Bill

Angela Watkinson: Will the Minister acknowledge that the problem with the existing negotiating method is that firefighters are being asked to agree to a pay settlement that is linked to changes in their conditions of service? As those will arise from the risk review, they are as yet unknown. The firefighters do not know what they are being asked to agree to, which is why we need a separate arrangement for them to be consulted in this instance.

Mr. Raynsford: I agree that there are uncertainties. That is one reason why individual firefighters may have been nervous about accepting the generous 16 per cent. offer on the table. Compared with what most other public sector workers are being offered, that is a good deal. However, I accept that uncertainty exists. In my judgment, it has been a major cause of alarm for many firefighters. That is why the employers' latest offer makes a number of changes to the text. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge mentioned those. They have been proposed to deal with the anxieties and concerns felt by many firefighters.

The introduction of the new arrangements following integrated risk management plans is likely to give rise to changes, but it is our understanding that the majority of firefighters will continue to operate the same shift system. The numbers who might be asked to move to a different shift system will be relatively small. That should be containable on a voluntary basis. In any case, different shift systems will be attractive to firefighters who do not find the present shift system wholly conducive to family life, for example. There are alternatives. It will be up to individual fire authorities to explore those, but it is our understanding that that is compatible with a consensual way forward that does not impose unreasonable changes or prevent firefighters from operating a similar shift system.

Angela Watkinson: One of the major concerns is that the watches of firefighters who work closely together and know one another well will be broken up. They know their colleagues' strengths and weaknesses and how they will react in life-endangering situations. Similarly, leading firefighters who are managing a fire know the strengths and weaknesses of the members of the watches to whom they are giving instructions. There is a concern that operational efficiency could be jeopardised by people working together at random. If they are not used to working together, they will not be as efficient or effective as the established watches.

Mr. Raynsford: I hear what the hon. Lady says and I know that some firefighters are concerned about that, but many fire stations already have mixed crewing whereby a full-time crew and a retained crew operate from the same station. The flexibility that allows those arrangements will often ensure a more effective response in a cost-effective way. It will be for each fire authority, under the integrated risk management plan process, to explore how it can best meet the needs of its area to provide the most effective service. That is what we are about. We are interested in safety and in ensuring the most effective response to the risks of fire. We want to achieve that in a more cost-effective way than often applies at the moment, because constant crewing can result in inefficiencies.

The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge asked whether the changes to the text on overtime would make it impossible for employers to make the savings that had been envisaged. That is a classic example of one of the changes that was designed to allay anxieties. It was thought that firefighters might assume that fire authorities or chief fire officers would reduce the numbers of employed firefighters and force up hours through overtime to compensate. That is not the intention. The objective is to allow extra flexibility. For example, if gaps are caused by sickness or other absences, that could be covered by overtime, but it should not justify reducing establishments arbitrarily to put them below the level that would be regarded as appropriate to provide proper fire cover.

Flexibility is very much the objective. That must be understood widely. It is in all our interests that we have the most effective fire service possible. No one wants the fire service damaged by change. Modernisation is not about reducing the quality of service or putting the public at risk. On the contrary: it is about ensuring a more effective response that accepts the need to do more on prevention while ensuring the continuation of a highly effective responsive service when fires occur.

One of the things that cause me the greatest alarm and concern is evidence of the growing number of fires that could have been prevented. There is a serious upward trend in incidents of arson, and more effective action is necessary to tackle that. There is still an extremely high number of false alarms: crews are dispatched for no good purpose because of malfunctioning alarms and other such incidents. Again, more effective action must be taken to ensure that people can concentrate on the important job of preventing fires and tackling them where they occur. That is what modernisation is about.

Those are decisions that must be taken in the light of local circumstances, and that is what integrated risk management plans are about. The employers' aim is to ensure that that is better understood by firefighters, who have, in part by misinformation that has been put about, been led to believe that the proposals are a serious threat to their future, to their patterns of work and to the safety of the public.